Curse

Shifty Geezer · May 14, 2005, 09:33 AM // 09:33

My recent thread on this game being stupid got closed before I could reply so I'll reply here.

Firstly I apologise for sounding like I was ranting. I was rather annoyed at the instance of writing. We had been waiting ages to play (game had sold out for two weeks or so) joined as soon as we could after work, struggled to find each other, and then found we couldn't actually play co-op. I hope you can understand how that was frustrating. But I was honestly opening up questions and suggestions for intelligent consideration. I *hoped* to get intelligent remarks against my comment, maybe pointing me to info I'd missed, instead of which people accused me of being stupid/low IQ without actually offering any actually constructive criticism.

I wrote the thread HERE because this is where I was directed from the GuildWars official site to post comments/suggestions (from this support thread)

I couldn't demo the BETA test because I didn't know the game existed then. I heard about the game as a suggestion, asked about a demo of GuildWars support and was told there wasn't one and wouldn't be one.

Regards my points, which were meant as comments to the devs (this being apparently where I post suggestions) I'm looking for feedback as to what can/will/will not be done about them. Will you (the devs) continue to limit co-op between friends for the first hours of the game, without telling them before they start playing that they are so limited? - advice that should be available from the start, surely? We stood around a good while trying to figure how to add 3 memebers to our party before I guessed it was something you probably couldn't do till later on, and then we ran around to rush through the beginning so we could get to a point where we could handle a party of 3 only to be too weak for Old Ascalon. The game is so designed, it seems, that you are supposed to maximise your time in early Ascalon, which isn't about party play. Is this not the case?

As far as players needing skill defeating monsters, I agree. However I say to anyone, take a party of 3 level 3 characters into Old Ascalon, seek to deliver the message North or whatever it was, and live to tell the tale. One bug attacks, and when you fight him off the rest join him. There is NO WAY 3 level 3 chars can survive against at least 5 level 5 bugs. You can't even run away. You need to be higher level before entering this zone - something that we are not told about.

I imagine the majority here are long time players, experienced MMOers, betatesters etc. I'm giving a perspective from a newbie, well experienced in RPGs, about things that are decidedly wrong in this game for the newbie, as advice for changes. If this isn't the place for suggestions and complaints to be discussed, please redirect it to where it should be. If my observations are wrong, please explain why.

And please DON'T just throw insults around without taking the time to explain why a point of mine is wrong! That doesn't do anyone any good.

Sekkira · May 14, 2005, 09:43 AM // 09:43

The point of the early part is to get used to playing on your own, learning the ins and outs of the game before you team up. Then you team up with two people and go to the northlands in there (possibly) and learn the ins and outs of basic teamwork. It's then you go to the presearing to get on with the game (by this time you should be about level 6 or something). With a team of four, it's hard getting through the first quests, but not impossible.

ShotGunBunny · May 14, 2005, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Shifty actually has a point here, i mean, why make you go single play while the game is designed for co-op?
The retail version has a pretty weird balance in difficulty, the missions are way too easy, and the instances are way too hard, in the early beta's i would rather lone all the quests because each time i got a party everyone would leave after finishing one quest or even get issues over where we'd go next.

The missions used to be pretty difficult, i remember a lot of times when we'd encounter a bunch of Warrior enemies and a healer, we'd manage to keep ourselves alive untill finally we killed the healer, the Warriors would go down pretty easy, it was difficult, but it was fun, now i need to force myself not to stare outside the window when encountering a few enemies in a mission.

Of course, failing a mission can be frustrating in a period of 3 days, but now we can play all the time and failing a mission isn't much of a problem, it's just common.

This unbalancing has made my chars pretty weak, for example, my R/W is now at Lion's Arch, at lvl 13! Even with a healer henchman i get torn to pieces by the monsters in the instances, i still have at least 20 unsolved quests, going back as far as Ascalon.

Sjoerd · May 14, 2005, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Level 3 in old Ascalon? I personally never managed to get into the academy below level 7 (mainly because I tend to explore a lot). You are just too low level. It might be possible to get as a level 3 into the academy (now I think of it, in the PvP part there, I once fought against a level 3). However if you explore the pre-sear Ascalon and take a few quests and search out your skills then you'll be easily level 5 or 6 very quickly.
What I in your problem is that you are too low level. You shouldn't have gone into the academy that soon.

Kamatsu · May 14, 2005, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Then you team up with two people and go to the northlands in there (possibly) and learn the ins and outs of basic teamwork. It's then you go to the post-searing to get on with the game (by this time you should be about level 6 or something).

You can't have group's bigger than 2 in pre-searing, so he could only go to the northlands with ONE of his friends - yet he clearly states he wants to go as a party of three.

I will say, just had a new "hint" pop-up come up for me in pre-searing with a new character which clearly stated you could only group with 1 other person in pre-searing, but once past that you could join up with more. I got this popup like just after talking to Sir Tydus and getting the mission to go and seek my 1st trainer. Don't know if thats a fixed place to get it or if that popup has always been there - but it does sort-of address one issue the original poster had.. which was not being told that he could only ever party with 1 other player in pre-searing.

thing is, if you follow through pre-searing and do the main quests as well as a whole bunch of the side-quests, you'll easily be lvl 5+ by time you hit post-searing, at which point you should be strong enuff to deal with the missions and quests at the start. however, there is nothing to indicate you should be doing this - however, their new streamlining of the main missions to try and get you to see the various different area's and stuff around and try and force you to get to at least lvl 4 b4 continuing is a good start imo.

they could do a whole lot more tho - just have hint popup's that give players an idea of the level they should be b4 continuing, maybe adjust some of the "main" quest talkers so they mention the other side-quests around - like say when you talk to Sir Tydus after getting 2nd profession, he could say there's other people around with quests and maybe the player should go do them, or if they don';t feel like it they can go with him.. that way players will KNOW there's other missions around and have some pointers on them... As it stands now, unless your watching you can easily miss some of those ! above npc's heads and nbot know there is a mission...

Classic example is the Duke up by the guild registerer in pre-searing. I never knew he offered quests till I went up to talk to the guild registerer just to see the costs of making a guild.. then saw the Duke had a ! quest icon above his head.. doh! had I not gone up there.. I'd likely have never even known there was a npc giving quests out.

another thing they could do wen you get to post-searing ascalon - how about have a pop-up or npc tell the player about the henchmen and where they are? Sure henchmen ai is not all that great, but henchies can be of some help/assistance if you want a full 4 person team and don't have 4 human players.. but unless you look aroun dand see what every npc is and does.. you might never actually see or realize they are there... and a henchie might have helped the original posters lvl 3 n00bie party fight those bugs.. (don't know.. never fought the bugs myself.. hahahaha!)...

there's a lot they could do t try and inform players more IMO.. but there is some info there, it just needs to be more obvious, more spread out and more informative as well as expanded so as to give new players a better idea/understanding of the game and such.

Mirrasi · May 14, 2005, 10:10 AM // 10:10

I actually wanted to reply to one thing you had said in your previous post. You mentioned about how hard it is to do missions with friends and to see if you all had the same mission, etc.

I think you are confusing missions with quests. Quests are the things you get all over town from different NPC's and such. Your first mission is called The Northern Wall (I THINK Sir Tydus will start you on the path but it's been a while for me), Anyway, there is an exit in Old Ascalon (north area) that takes you to the place you start the mission. Every mission has one of these "holding areas" where you can grab other players to group or henchman.

My advice for you is to go this area with your friends and start that first mission. Quite honestly my hubby and I have done very few quests since we started the missions. Each mission has a great story line, is great for leveling, and is fun. Each mission will lead you to the next and opens up your map to new areas and new cities.

Put it this way, if you zoom out on your map, pretty much that entire map will be covered at some point. This game is actually very huge.

Anyway, try the missions, you will probably feel better aboutt he game. (I do feel there should be some better direction on pointing new players towards these missions. I've seen a LOT of people who thought that the quests were teh missions.)

Sekkira · May 14, 2005, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by kamatsu

You can't have group's bigger than 2 in pre-searing, so he could only go to the northlands with ONE of his friends - yet he clearly states he wants to go as a party of three.

Yeah that's what I meant, wasn't thinking straight...

Quote:

(I do feel there should be some better direction on pointing new players towards these missions. I've seen a LOT of people who thought that the quests were teh missions.)

I call all of them missions. Of course I'll say Main missions for the missions and just missions for the quests.

Kamatsu · May 14, 2005, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sjoerd

What I in your problem is that you are too low level. You shouldn't have gone into the academy that soon.

The point here is he wanted to play with his FRIENDS, and pre-searing only lets you play with 1 other player, an dhe had more than 1 friend he wanted to play.. so he and his friends rushed through pre-searing so as to all be able to play together.

He has a point here, the game is all about guilds and group's and playing wit friends/allies/etc and yet the initial aspect of the game forces you to play solo, and if you rush through it to try and play with your friends, your then penalized in that you'll be too weak to be able to do anything... or you could solo till your all strong enough.. but that coulkd take hours and hours... and if you work fulltime, have a family, etc.. your time to play the game is LIMITED.. so that solo time is HELL for you...

Heck, if I wanted to play with some of my friends on GW.. I'd be screwed since my time per day I can play is limited.. so would be like a week b4 I got to post-searing and could group with them. Gee, how fun i that.. to buy a online multi-player game to play with friends buyt have to spend close to a week playing just to get to a point where I could play with my friends properly? pfft.. I'd be really turned off GW then maybe..

Madjik · May 14, 2005, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Pre~sear was created as a tutorial to get newbies and veterans of mmo's alike on the right track with the game. From what I understand, Pre~sear ascalon is designed with the absolute newb in mind, and is ment to teach not only the basics of the game but to start you in on the basics of MMO play. Most complete newbs as far as i know wont want to jump directly into a party right away and so Pre~sear, i belive, was designed to ease you into group play, thus the 2 player group limit.

Mirrasi · May 14, 2005, 10:26 AM // 10:26

I agree Madjik.

As you get higher and go through more missions, you're party size will increase 2, 4, 6 and 8. IMO going through PVE all the way up is a great way to train for PVP at the end. When I first started, I created an instant level 20 just to see how pvp worked. I was completely clueless, lol. Taking a character through all these missions has really taught me how to play and know my class well. And quite honestly, when I try out my next class...I'm gonna do it all over. In can be frustrating when you want to group with 3 friends at first, but I believe the reason they start you at so small is for you to get the basic feel of the controls, the map, how to get quests etc. In a group you may miss a lot of this if your friends move too fast. It's just a way for you to learn.

Take heart though, you will be grouping with them quite soon. The missions get quite a bit more complex as you get higher. The game changes from typical hack and slash to.....omg we've really got to work out how to do this! heh

P.S. IMO calling a quest a mission is just going to confuse people. A quest is a quest and a mission is a mission :P

Elvisman2001 · May 14, 2005, 11:59 AM // 11:59

When my I first got the game, me and 2 other friends also got it at the same time and we were a bit miffed about not being able to group so it sin't just him. However, that was our first characters. I can now get to level 5 and do the missions and quests I need to do in post searing (the ones that give good equipment and skills/points) in no time pretty much. Its frustrating to sign in with your buds (especially for the first time) and discover that you cant group up. We all kept saying how good the game was... but how much greater it was going to be when we could all group up together. But, I also see why the developers did this and, IMO, was a good move as it keeps everything challenging.

Sidra Meum · May 14, 2005, 12:13 PM // 12:13

I won't tell you that your wrong.

But... I will actually try and help.

I had several friends join with me. I too was a bit upset that Pre-Searing parties were only for 2 people. I felt like I was leaving some of my freinds out of the "group".

But, Remember. This is much like a "Pre-Game". Its a training area. It would be nice if the parties could be 3. But, oh well. Your not meant to hang out there for long - just to get started. Going through all of Pre Ascalon takes maybe 3 hours. Honestly that isnt very long. PreSearing is not that big, nor that hard. If they raise the group limit they have to raise the overall difficulty of the area.

As games go - It takes a bit to get used to them, especially the change with Guild Wars. I think the problem with your origional post - was that it didnt seem like you WANTED help or to learn about the game. Its understandable. You should have seen me with FFX came out.

Some suggestions if I could make them:

1) Remake your character. OR look me up online and I will come help you gain a few levels post searing

I would go with option 1. Remake your character, that way you can visit the trainers and at least get a decent amount of skills, a good level (which basically equals higher health and more attributes), and some money so that you can get some better armor after the academy. This time, Do not agree to enter the academy until you are at least level 5, I prefere level 7.

2) Make another friend. Party's are only two, Yes. If you like - Your other friends can run around and I would be more then happy to make a new girl and help show you around pre-searing. While solo'ing presearing is quite easy... it is always a bit more fun with someone else.

3) Post Ascalon. Very Hard. It is supposed to be. With the right groups. It can be done. I think - You simply didnt get enough time to learn about how to play the game or really use your skills before you were thrown in there. Its really not about levels. Its about the skills you have and how you use them. Also. NEVER leave town without a healer - even if its a henchmen.

Anyway, if you want some help just look me up

Sidra Meum is my main girl. (No surprise there).

Bgnome · May 14, 2005, 01:18 PM // 13:18

moved to sardelac

PsiCotic · May 14, 2005, 01:23 PM // 13:23

um shifty it is definitely not possible for 3 lvl 3 people to get thru old ascalon.
which is why they implemented Hecnhcmen. get a healer and youll be able to get through old ascalon easily. at least me and my friend did we were both lvl 3 and we had two lvl 3 henchmen. learn a bit more about the game, read some books about it or something before u start complaining that u have to spend days in pre searing just to get past post searing

Shifty Geezer · May 14, 2005, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Thanks for the replies, and this time it seems my point has been better presented.

I've been playing a few hours now exactly as suggested, getting a higher level char to enter Old Ascalon with so we can play as a group. This was our plan after last night's unfortunate whippings we received!

As an intro it works fine. I'm learning stuff. I've got new skills. A pop-up appeared about about half an hour that said for the first part of the game parties are limited to 2 players. This info would be nice in the manual!!

Is there any way to be sure what's a mission and what's a quest? Is there some way to tell the difference when talking to people? We had the same trouble of some here, following different quests, mumbling along. If we could work through the missions together as a group, that's really our ideal. Being sure to be able to just pick missions and not quests would be a 'good thing'!

Sidra Meum · May 14, 2005, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Some missions are a 'do it together" type thing. Others however are not. These are usually "Objective" quests. Which isnt hard. Simply reset the map and go get the item again. The extra XP from killing the enemies won't hurt you.

Other "Objectives" can be done by trading the item amongst one another to "Update" your quest, then going back and completing it together. This doesnt work all the time. But, for the most part. Most quests can be done together. As long as you do your part of talking to the NPC.

Glad to hear it is smoothing out a bit more.

dansamy · May 14, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

I entered Academy at lvl 7 without even looking for the Estates city west of Ascalon. I just did the quests as I found them. When I finished my last open quest, I thought about trekking out to Estates to see if there was another quest or two. I decided it just wasn't worth it. Level 6-8 seems to be a good time to go through to Post.

Madjik · May 15, 2005, 08:39 AM // 08:39

To answer your question shifty, A quest is somthing you get from NPC's you get these from those NPC's that have a green exclamation point ( ! ) rotating over thier head.

Missions only exist in Post~Sear. A mission actually appears and is selectable on your overworld map; They appear as a shield (incomplete) a shield with one sword behind it hilt pointed to the left; blade to the right (Complete) or a sword behind it hilt to the right; blade to the left (Bonus mission complete) or even with both swords behind it in a crossed fashion (mission and bonus mission complete). These Co~Op missions start a little diffrent in that there is a button on your party menu just under all the names thats labled 'Enter'. Quests often give skills and various other rewards while missions mostly just advance the story and gain you access to later areas of the game with more ease then simply traveling the world.

Hope this helps.